CMSF - Analisis final (por ahora)

[Niessuh]

Modelos de respuesta de battlefront frente a cualquier critica, sea cual sea su contenido:


MODELO A:"Es que no pillas el concepto"

MODELO B:"Bueno, esa es TÚ opinión. Deberias añadir "en mi opinión" cuando dices esas cosas.

[Panta ASTIAZARAN]

La verdad es que con tanta crítica me ha picado la curiosidad y hasta me dan ganas de comprarlo sólo para ver qué me parece a mi, pero por otra parte USD 45 por una descarga con varias complicaciones debido a el sistema ése nuevo de registro electrónico, mejor me aguanto un poco más. Quizás dentro de algún tiempo salga el parche 1.75 y las cosas se pongan más razonables.
Así que enfin, a continuar jugando los viejos y conocidos CMBB y CMAK hasta que el Mayor Holridge se decida a lanzar la nueva versión 5 civil de TacOps...
¿Quieren saber una cosa? Hace muchos años que me dedico a los wargames, y en todos ellos, conocí algunas compañías que saben responder a las inquietudes de sus usuarios, como Matrix, pero nadie tiene un "servicio de atención al cliente"como él...
Saludos,
P.

[Leta]

Hay una discusión abierta en los foros de Battlefront muy interesante. La cosa comienza cuando un usuario recuerda ciertas palabras de Steve dichas hace dos años.

El hilo completo, aquí: What a difference about 2 years makes

3 CM games released to date, dozens of awards including 3 PC Gamer Strategy Turn Based Game of the year awards (2000,2002,2003) plus a Computer Gaming World Wargame of the Year award (2002). Games that have been sold in virtually every single country on Earth. All of it, based upon an unproven game concept and idea and a vision by a virtually unknown, small software company. And now we stand, on the cusp of the next generation of wargaming realism and fun.

Those of you who trusted us before were rewarded with games that met or surpassed your expectations. Those of you who doubted us and complained? Well you got the same damn gameplay and still loved it!

So, maybe, just maybe WE KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE ARE DOING!


The above was posted by BF about 2 years ago - where is the vision now?

Unos posts más tarde, llega la respuesta de Steve, en el modo que describe Niessuh de "esa es solo TU opinión y además no sabes de lo que estás hablando, aquí el que sabe soy YO".

Yet another "my opinion means more than anybody else's" thread? What a surprise

A reminder that I've said, since the beginning of Battlefront's existance, that it is impossible for us to please all people all the time so we don't even try.

We still know what we are doing and just because some people are bent out of shape that there are no hexes doesn't mean they are right. Oh wait... sorry, that was a different group of people that said we didn't know what we were doing. So easy to get people who think they know best confused

Steve

Pero inmediatamente ... ¡zas! ... primera patada en la boca:

I think this is an unnecessarily irritable response to a cogent and well-argued post.

I'm with Sandy a hundred per cent and I do not believe he is posting in order to assert that "his opinion means more than anyone else's".

I believe that, whatever the difficulties with the earlier releases of CMx1 games, BFC always had a very clear conceptual vision. In the case of CMSF, however, I believe that there is a disconnect between the vision and the level of execution needed to realise that vision. In other words, the game cannot live up to its basic concept yet, and nothing in 1.02 disproves this. It is wishful thinking on BFC's part to assume that, with pathfinding and tacAI in their current, lamentable condition, the game can be a decent representation of modern-day MOUT. As I've argued here before, a certain level of imprecision in pathing, tacAI and the following of orders can be imagined away in a WW2 theater as "fog of war", but in modern assymetrical warfare where Bluefor's greatest asset is speed, effective comms and precision of movement and fire, effective tacAI and pathfinding become very, very conspicuous by their absence. I've said it before: BFC should wipe the slate clean and admit to having failed in this respect so that consumer confidence can be rebuilt on a baseline of credibility. Saying "well it has its weaknesses, we admit that, but, really, you guys are expecting too much and/or a different game" is an understandable but stubborn and wrongheaded move by the developers. The game is broken and cannot live up to its stated conceptual goals. For all its teething problems, CMBO did not fail in quite the same way.

I understand Steve's argument when it comes to features that consumers expected to be implemented differently, such as WEGO and quick battles, yet, again, there is an atmosphere of denial and spin here: People complain about the implementation of WEGO and QBs not because they are different from what they might be used to but because they are not nearly as much fun or as well executed. WEGO in CMSF is a kludge.

I am hoping the game will become playable with another two or three patches and I know the devs are working hard and that their hearts are in the right place. My biggest fear is this: If they were as totally convinced, as they appeared to be on the eve of release, that their product was basically sound and if they continue to believe that consumer complaints are mainly the result of misplaced expectations rather than legitimate responses to the broken condition of the game, then CMSF will never really be fixed because nobody at BFC is prepared to admit that it's broke.

I admire your pride in your work, Steve, but the game is broken.

Seguida de otra patada en ... el bajo vientre:

I suppose it is easy to have your opinion lost in the debate. Some people like that, alot of people like this, most of us like the other.
Best thing to do is tot up the proportions that like something and lean towards that if you want to give the crowd what they want. But is what they want really important?

RT isn't a move forward as it has already been done to death by other games. SF is just joining the throng. Where is the money, well it is with RT, quick fix, wham bam thank you mam. Lets go mainstream and really haul it in lads. We are being assured that BF know what they are doing and we really have no idea what we want, but BF do. BF know what we really want, you just don't know it yet so stop complaining about a lost aspect of the game that you really enjoyed, which made you become a CM fan above all the RT arcade click fests that were around and get with the RT programme fgs.

BF is a business, not a freaking charity and they have no obligations towards any game format. They produce a 'product', stick it on the shelves and if you don't like it then don't buy it. If you have already bought it then i suppose you can always try to take it back otherwise tough luck matey. Your money is in their pockets.

Personally I am old enough and experienced enough to know what I like. RT has been around and I have tried it with a few games (there are many about). I have also tried turn-based strategy (also many about). WEGO I have only played with CM (anyone else other than BF ever produced WEGO? either way I have not found any). Which game do you think stood out from the seething crowd and held me?

Times change people and sadly the 'good ole days' are always behind us.

Siempre aparece alguno de los abducidos que piensan que el Tiempo Real es el mayor invento en los Wargames desde la salida del Squad Leader (y eso que ya estaba inventado).

I find the notion that WEGO is somehow for serious wargamers only laughable

I think that tired argument is just being used as a crutch by the crusty middle aged men who would like to keep CM from progressing beyond anything they cannot understand or are not willing to understand

It is the same tired argument that we laugh at now who ask why CMBO did not feature true turns and did not offer hexs

Or the argument that the computer will never replace good old board games

The arguments are rubbish and it is what keeps wargaming buried in the dark ages and continues to make it a niche genre
The biggest enemy of wargames is not 16 year old kids, or huge budget games or even market indifference.
The biggest enemy of wargames is their fans.
The fans who revolt against any sort of change and keep the genre firmly planted in the dark ages.

The genre is not going to grow until developers stop pandering to that very limited fan group.

In 5-6 years we will look back at this and have yet another laugh when realtime is the norm and 2-3 more CM games have been released.

But the arguments and these 'fans' still grate on my nerves.

16 year old kids who love real time games are not the enemy.
Their money is just as good as yours.
And the more of them that play (and more importantly pay for) 'your' games, the better those games will be.

Imagine if BFC had the budget to hire 3 more Charles or a bigger art team or more 3-D modelers
Or give Steve an army of pretty 19 year old interns

So revolting against change and doing your best to drive off new customers is just shooting yourself and your hobby in the foot.
The gap between mainstream games and wargames is just going to grow ever larger.

And that is my two euros

Y rápidamente es callado con cosas como estas:

Click-fest is the way forward! Huzzah! The problem is that at the moment the tac AI is so damn poor you spend an inordinate amount of time baby sitting and micromanaging in RT and that it has a seriously detrimental effect on any strategy you might have planned.

Sandy, like you, I much prefer WEGO, but not in its current, sorry and broken state. At the moment its an ok computer game, but a poor wargame.

he remarcado la última frase porque me parece que da en el clavo de por qué nos quejamos del actual CMSF.

Pero Steve sigue en sus trece y en su estilo:

bahger,

The game is broken and cannot live up to its stated conceptual goals.

Ye have little faith The game has been out exactly one month and you haven't seen v1.03, which fixes pretty much all the basic problems people have been having with things like LOS, path finding, PBEM, etc. I don't expect that you're going to like the game any more for it, but I don't see that the nails are in the coffin.

People complain about the implementation of WEGO and QBs not because they are different from what they might be used to but because they are not nearly as much fun or as well executed. WEGO in CMSF is a kludge.

This is my point... you keep forgetting to include "in my opinion". You state these things as if EVERYBODY agrees with you. They do not. That doesn't invalidate your opinion any more than it validates someone else's.

I am hoping the game will become playable with another two or three patches and I know the devs are working hard and that their hearts are in the right place. My biggest fear is this: If they were as totally convinced, as they appeared to be on the eve of release, that their product was basically sound and if they continue to believe that consumer complaints are mainly the result of misplaced expectations rather than legitimate responses to the broken condition of the game, then CMSF will never really be fixed because nobody at BFC is prepared to admit that it's broke.

Again, the arrogance of presuming that your opinion is the only one that matters. There are aspects of CM:SF that need to be improved, for sure, but we're prepared to do that. The issue is we may not agree on what needs to be improved. Again, it's a matter of opinion and you need to keep that in mind.

JonS,

I genuinely do not understand why so many people are saying this.

I don't either. Which is why I have to take such opinions with a pinch of salt. There is something more to it than that, yet when I try to point this out I'm accused of burying my head in the sand. The reason? People have formed an opinion and they do not want it challenged. It's like our old, favorite saying... "fix it or do somefink".

leto,

All things being equal, the main objection that people have with CMSF is that it is broken.

The potential is there though... looking forward to BFC getting it done right.

The problem is, as I have said, that there is no one opinion about what is "broken". Version 1.03 will go a long way to addressing the technical problems. But when people say that "WeGo is a kludge"... I don't even know what to do with that. It's almost identical to the way it was in CMx1, so if it is totally broken in CM:SF then it must have been only slightly less of a disaster in CMx1.

Dalem,

But pushing for unnecessary (opinion only!) change and doing your best to drive off old customers is okay?

What is unnecessary to you was life or death for us. We could have produced a near clone of CMx1 and had it released a year ago. We'd also likely go out of business soon. I don't really care if you believe that or not since it's not relevant, no more than what my opinion counts for in terms of how you earn your living. I could have an opinion about this, but I don't know what you do

Lurker765,

I have nothing against RT players even though I prefer WEGO. I think this rift clouds the real problems of the fun destroying bugs. Many people must feel that the effort spent on making the game RT took away from other features they wanted. Speaking as a software engineer I don't think that is particularly true since I don't see the two as being all that different in execution.

Totally agree. I will also say that I've not seen ONE person who is in favor of RT complain that WeGo is somehow interfering with their enjoyment of the game or was responsible for various features they would like to see being left out.

Rudel,

Nah RT is not the only way forward
But there is not alot that can be done with Wego since CM1 sort of perfected it

Well put. I've said this before, more than once, as well. When we looked at CMBB we saw the end of the road for the engine. Sure, we could have redone it and added a few things here and there, but it basically would be no different than what we had already done. "Great!!" say some people. "Not great" from our perspective because the number of people interested in buying that slightly warmed over redo would not be enough to keep us in business.

Steve

Y aquí es donde me gustaría que apareciera Cid250 para explicar exactamente por qué el actual WEGO, donde se pasa de usar todo el tiempo necesario para los cálculos del turno a usar solo lo que se puede del minuto de acción, nos parece una kk. Y es que él lo explica mucho mejor que yo en inglés.

De todas formas, me parece que están poniendo muchas esperanzas en que la salida del parche 1.03 va a arreglar todas las críticas. Yo no estoy tan seguro ...

[Guderian]

VitalitY is the key, for those who hate demos


el juego apesta, está increiblemente mal optimizado para los gráficos que tiene y el nuevo interfaz es ridículo.

[Molinator]

Yo creo que la postura de BF esta muy, muy, muy clara, y de ahi no se van a mover.

Ademas, en un post mio, Steve me contesto literalmente que CMSF habia vendido en Europa mas que cualquier otro Combat Mission, y no seria de extrañar que este fuera su juego mas vendido tambien fuera de nuestro continente. Tambien dijo que CMBB habia vendido menos que CMBO, y que CMAK a su vez vendio menos que CMBB.

Conclusion, en mi opinion, clarisima: nuevo motor grafico, lo hacemos en tiempo real, y le metemos la guerra de moda, una que esten los arabes por medio.
Si vendemos mas, lo que nos digan no entra por un oido y nos sale por el otro, que creo que es lo que esta sucediendo. No olvidarse que un juego hoy dia vende mas por su marketing que por su calidad, y es evidente que este CMSF ha sabido generar mas expectacion a propios y extraños que los antiguos, auqnue solo sea por la fama de sus predecesores.

Si es que, tampoco se de que no extrañamos, este mundillo de los videojuegos esta asi, precisamente por otros foros ando teniendo una discusion con gente que admite sin problemas que para ellos, lo primero los graficos, y si luego ya si el juego es jugable, entonces mejor, pero lo primero es lo primero....

Si CMSF ha vendido o tienen expectativas por la tendencia actual de que venda mas que CMBO, ellos estaran siempre convencidos que han hecho lo correcto. Triste, pero real.
Efectivamente, "At the moment its an ok computer game, but a poor wargame."

Y lo de los parches, yo creo que hay que hechar la vista atras. ¿Cuantos parches hicieron falta para los otros CM?, ¿cuantos parches parecen que van a hacer falta para este?.

Ah, sobre los "descubridores" del tiempo real, a mi me dan pena, de verdad. Pero me repatea cuando tachan de anticuados y carcas a los que prefieren algo por turnos, y especialmente me molesta cuando dicen que es que igual tu eres un torpe con el raton y por eso no queires el TR....malo, malo, ya empezamos a ver opiniones que veia yo cuando los ETRB&B empezaron a estar de moda

[Kal]

Bah!!!! Editado, paso de entrar a este trapo.

[Haplo_Patryn]

Kal, creo que se refiere a los más acérrimos defensores de los RTS, no a los descubridores "casuales" que de pronto un día "descubren" el RTS. Yo reconozco que en algunos juegos el RTS está muy bien pero en otros no pega.

Hay mucho fundamentalista de los RTS y supongo que Molinator se refería a ellos pero no se ha expresado bien.

Me extrañaba que entraras tan a saco. Debe ser la boda que tuviste ayer. ¿Te sentaron mal las gambas o qué?

[Kal]

No, Haplo, hay pocas cosas que me saquen de quicio, pero precisamente una de ellas son los que sienten pena de la gente, en ese sentido.

Pero, lo dicho, he editado mi mensaje (antes de ver el tuyo), ya imagino que Molinator quería decir lo que tú expresas.

[Haplo_Patryn]

Si te sirve de consuelo yo siento mucho pena por ti cuando estás en esas reuniones de comunidad tan chulas.

[Kal]

Bueno, ahora que has visto mi malagueña respuesta, edito de nuevo para seguir dando la impresión de que soy una persona educada.

Muchas gracias, Señor Haplo, por sus amables palabras.

[Molinator]

Joer, Kal, no se que habras podido decirme, pero lo de "dar pena" es mas bien en sentido figurado hombre.....fuerte seria mi caso si me tomara tan en serio cosas sobre videojuegos.
Probablemente deberia de haber usado otra expresion. ¿Tan fuerte ha sido lo que has dicho?

Efectivamente, me refiero a los que parece que todo, absolutamente todo lo que sea en TR, es mejor, "porque si", y tambien a aquellos que como dije hace tiempo, a los que hace 2 años defendian los turnos y ahora de repente el TR es lo mejó de lo mejó solo porque el CMSF es asin. En los foros de BF hay casos de esos y me resultan chocantes, nada mas.

[Kal]

Ni te lo imaginas. Venía de un atasco.

Para volver al hilo: estoy un poco sorprendido por esta campaña contra CMSF. No os falta razón en muchas cosas, pero me parece desproporcionada esa impresión que, en mi humilde opinión, puede quedar en el lector ajeno al asunto de que el juego es un absoluto montón de mierda, los que disfrutamos de él unos abducidos sectarios y los de BF unos desalmados que maltratan al cliente; lo cual, dicho sea de paso, nos colocaría a unos pocos en el saco de los masoquistas.

No recuerdo una campaña tan negativa en contra de nada en esta web. Será por el cariño y la desilusión. No se me ocurre otra explicación para algo que, como tú mismo dices, no debería ser tomado tan en serio.

Lo normal es que salga un producto, a unos nos interese y a otros no.

[Molinator]

Pues si sirve de algo, yo no opino que el juego sea "un monton de mierda", pero si opino que esta muy por debajo de los demas CM y que no cumple con lo que, ni siquiera los mas pesimistas, esperaban de este CMSF.
Ademas, siempre fastidia ver pasos atras en una saga o tanto bug junto.

Sobre los de BF, pues yo personalemnte he de decir que Steve me esta pareciendo un personaje de mucho cuidado. Al cliente no creo que lo maltraten, por la cuenta que les trae, pero a los que les critican minimamente si y muchas veces su respuestas se reducen a un "no tienes ni puta idea, nosotros hemos hecho esto asi, y como lo hemos hecho nosotros, estamos haciendo lo correcto y bien".
Es que hombre, esa aparente posesion de la verdad absoluta, es un poco cargante. Luego les ponen en analisis 5.5/10 y los analistas tampoco tienen ni puñetera idea, no entienden el combate moderno, no han "pillado" el juego (y esto lo dijo literalmente Steve), etc.....
Ahora, eso si, aquellos 8/8 o el 9.5/10 debe d sr porque son gente muy inteligente que seran veteranos de guerra y que han pillado el juego perfectamente.

Lo de tomarselo en serio o no, digamos que cuando tu dinero esta en ello, algo de importante tambien tiene.

[Blas de Lezo]

Hola Kal...

Por tus palabras saco la impresion de que le estás sacando jugo al CMSF. Yo, después de jugar toda la campaña tutotial y alguna que otra batalla he de decir que no puedo hacerme una idea clara sobre este juego... creo que si no conociese los CMX1 me parecería un juego acojonante (upss... perdón por el taco), pero el CMSF está siendo victima de las propias expectativas generadas por él...

Ni soy fanatico del RT ni del WEGO, muchas novedades que incorpora el CMSF respecto al Mando y Control (especialmente rel relative spotting) sólo tienen sentido jugando en RT (seamos sinceros, en WEGO sólo tengo que acordarme de la posición relativa de lo que ve la unidad x para adaptar mi estrategia... sin embargo en tiempo real no puedo permitirme el lujo de perder tiempo memorizando posiciones relativas de lo que ven otras unidades). Sin embargo la pobre TacAI nos obliga a pasar todo el tiempo llevando de las manos a las unidades ya que estas son incapaces de tomae ni la más sencilla de las decisiones...

De todas formas la principal pega que le veo yo es que se han tomado muchas molestias en tener en cuenta cada disparo de cad arma, la posición relativa de cada soldado de una escuadra etc, y luego la pifian cuando al jugador solo le permiten dar instruciones del punto gordo... es desesperante decirle a una escuadra que se esconda detrás de una pared y la mitad de los chicos se quedan fuera de la zona cubierta por dicha pared (aunque bien mirado, es una forma un tanto drástica de cubrir a lo otra mitad ¿no?)...

En fin, todo este royo era para decirte que no estás sólo, que yo también le veo mucho potencial a este motor de, como muy bien has definido, esta Beta ( y ni eso, creo que se queda en alfa) de pago...

Un saludo

[Kal]

Mi estado mental con respecto a CMSF es el siguiente:

Siento que una pequeña compañía que me ha dado muchas horas de entretenimiento ha sacado un producto inacabado al mercado por razones que desconozco.

Después de cabrearme como una mona con la demo decidí que me compraría el juego para apoyar a "esa pequeña tienda de la esquina" por un ¿incoherente? sentido de la fidelidad hacia ellos.

Luego descubrí cosas que me gustaron mucho y otras que me siguen horrorizando.

Ahora mismo estoy en el proceso de esperar que vayan saliendo parches para ver, con curiosidad morbosa y esperanza en dosis idénticas, hasta dónde pueden llevar este proyecto, que es lo que es ahora mismo, un proyecto que jamás debería haber salido al mercado.

Y mientras tanto, de vez en cuando, consigo jugar un escenario en el que por mano de la providencia, el diseño del escenario o mi mayor conocimiento de las capacidades y defectos del producto, consigo disfrutar un buen combate.

Más o menos.